QuestionQUESTION: Hi. I do not know whether this falls within your area of expertise or not, but thought I would give it a shot. I was involved with a man for three years who embraced my feminist and pro-choice views, and was very supporitve of my involvement in pro-choice activism. He knew that I worked at a women's clinic, and was fine with that. He also knew that I did not want children. I made it clear that if i ever got pregnant, I would end it. He and I agreed on that.
All of a sudden he has changed. He has "found God" and is all into Christianity now. I have always believed Christianity to be harmful and oppressive to women, and his change in attitude towards me is an example of that! He has become very posessive and controlling, and demanded that I give up my feminism. He says that he is the man, and I have to do what he says, according to the bible. And that includes giving up my "non christian" job, stop using birth control and be open to having children etc. AFTER we get married of course. We can not even continue having premarital sex I don't even really want to get married.
Women's rights and abortion rights in particular are very important to me. Should I give it all up to please him? I am torn over this.I wanted to talk to someone who might understand. Most of the people I know say I SHOULD be willing to do so, and that I am being irrational. That if I loved him I would change. I am thinking of leaving him though. I LOVE my job, and my activism is important to me. Please help.
Elaine
ANSWER: Hi Elaine :)
He has no right to tell you what to do with your career, body, or anything else. If he's resorting to the bible, he has to not pick and choose what beliefs he follows from it; so if he's going to be against birth control and abortion (which, by the way, the bible can be interpreted as saying it is NOT murder!), and premarital sex, he also needs to be against alcohol drinking, traveling in any other way than by foot, monogamy (men had multiple wives), and even against marriage itself; the apostle Paul declares it is best to be single/celibate, women who aren't virgins on their wedding nights. That's only the tip of the iceberg.
In my opinion, I don't think you should give up who you are and what you do for someone who is going to treat you unequally. There's nothing irrational about having your own career, interests, and choices. Irrational would be giving everything up for someone who is looking down on you and your decisions. Leaving a relationship is a big step, but if it's what you want to do, and need for yourself, then it's a great decision. I think it'd be better to be with a man who respects your individuality, what you stand for, and what you choose to do.
The "if you loved him you would change" doesn't apply here. Changing who you are, your beliefs, what makes you happy? No. In this case, i believe he's the one who needs to drastically change. You deserve respect, and it doesn't sound like he's giving you any. You definitely deserve an equal partnership. Good luck with what you decide, I hope you'll be able to do what you truly want :)
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QUESTION: Thank you for your words of encouragement/advice. I hope you don't mind a follow-up. This is actually related to what the bible teaches about birth control and abortion.
I was talking to a female physician at the clinic I work in, and we got onto this topic. She is a very well-educated and intelligent lady. I admire her a great deal. She is also very brave. She has been targeted in the past by anti-choice zealots, and even had her life threatened. But she perseveres, because she believes in what she is doing.
Anyhow, she said that it is very important that one puts the Bible into a cultural and historical context. She said it was written in a very different time and place. For example, the reason behind the prohibition against premarital sex was actually very pragmatic. She said in biblical times people married as young as eleven and twelve, and the law was intended to prevent children from being sexually exploited. Nowadays, people get married much later in life, usually after having been in at least a couple of long term relationships. The average age that women get married is 25, and the age for men is 27. Our life span is also considerably longer. Back then most people didn't live past the age of 21. And lastly, procreation was necessary then in order to ensure the survival of the human species. NOW, we have an overpopulation.
And she also mentioned that abortion was NOT considered murder in biblical times. In fact, this is made clear by the fact that the punishment for killing a man was death, while the punishment for injuring or killing a fetus was a fine.
She also pointed out that while the reason behind demanding that women submit to men was that Eve had sinned by eating the apple, you could actually interpret that as a good thing. Eve did not blindly obey "God". She was exercising her free will. And even if she had committed a sin, it would be unjust to punish ALL women for her indescretion.
Interestingly enough, childbirth was not seen as miraculous and beautiful as most christians would like you to believe. But was actually intended as punishment. The question is do you think it would be a good idea to point all of these things out to him? And do you believe that the bible was meant to be interpreted literally with regards to womens rights, abortion and birth control? Or do you believe as my friend does that these are outdated beliefs, that have no relevance in modern day society? Thanks for your time Danielle.
Sincerely,
Elaine
ANSWER: I definitely don't mind, I love being able to help/talk with people!
It's so unfortunate that people who work for the health/safety of women are put in danger. You'd think the anti-choice people could find something better to do, but as the past 20 years have shown, they don't.
She's absolutely right. People forget that some things don't apply years after they've been written, and the bible is no exception. That's interesting, I never knew that! Yeah, nowadays, a lot of people like to wait until after settling down, whether it be with a secure job and/or after highschool and college, when they're in a comfortable place to make such a decision.
Yes, I ALWAYS remember that part about how if you harm a pregnant woman, and that results in the loss of the pregnancy, you will not be punished by death, therefore, logically, terminating a pregnancy wasn't even considered killing then.People are usually surprised at that one.
The Eve thing-I've never thought of it like that before, and that's a great way of looking at it. I also remember somehow coming across the story of Lillith, the woman before Eve, who didn't like being submissive to Adam (wanted more control power wise and sexually) but she was banished for that, and she is the snake that has Eve take the apple. I've always been intrigued by that story.
It's ironic that it was seen as a punishment, because that's what anti-choicers are trying to make it now, which adds a whole other level of scariness. Talk about going back to biblical times. It's worth a try. He may need some time to think about it, but when he's presented with those views, he may be forced to rethink his position on things. And the bible definitely needs to NOT be interpreted literally today, because I don't think many people would be following it as it says. And as 95% of Americans have premarital sex, following that is already long gone out of the picture. Following it strictly would also mean no wearing two different fabrics, no eating shellfish, and too many other things. It can definitely be interpreted for its other messages, like not killing your enemy, turning the other cheek, etc. And actually, Jesus' first followers were women. I think there is a story that he came across men who were about to kill a woman for adultery (premarital sex?) and he said that line-if you are without sin yourself, be the first to cast the stone, or something like that. But that's a message I think these strictly religious people need to get. If they see abortion as a sin (or birth control, premarital sex, etc.), then they should think before screaming at girls who go into clinics, or trying to kill abortion providers, because I'm sure, in biblical standards, they have done more than their fair share of sinning. And ideas need to change with the times. Should African-Americans be put back into slavery, or should we re-segregate the schools? Definitely not.
I hope that goes well, and I admire you for doing the work you do, women need their reproductive freedom, and freedom to make whatever choice suits them, and it's great you're helping that continue. And always feel free to write to me :)
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QUESTION: Hi Danielle! Thank you for your kind words, and for inviting me to write back. This is quite an interesting discussion we are having here. I always enjoy talking to other like-minded people, and learning from them.
It is very hard being a feminist nowadays. Feminism has become sort of a "dirty" word. People have so many misconceptions and preconceived notions about what a feminist is, most of them negative. A lot of people think that feminists are all man hating lesbians! It's amazing to me how many women are so quick to say "Oh, I'm not a feminist". Yet, these women all work outside the home, have their own bank accounts, use birth control, exercise their right to vote etc. All rights they wouldn't have if it weren't for the women's rights movement.
A lot of people are just hypocrites. I remember one woman who used to protest outside the clinic ALL the time. She was one of the more vocal protesters. And none of us could believe our eyes when she brought her teenage daughter in for an abortion! Of course, a couple of weeks later she was back out on the picket line. Sickening! As the old saying goes "the only moral abortion is my abortion". LOL
It is just SO difficult to find feminist men out there to date who are not gay! I am dreading having to get back into the dating scene. A lot of men get turned off right off the bat if you say you are a feminist. One of my male friends told me I would have to learn to "act more feminine" if I wanted to find a man. In other words, downplay my intelligence, not be so outspoken etc. It's sad, but he may well be right. Sigh.
I have never heard about Lilith before. I didn't realize there was a woman who came before Eve. That is certainly an interesting interpretation. The truth is that no one really knows if there is a "God" and IF there is what He/She expects of us. The Bible was written in Hebrew I believe, and has been translated SO many times.
Even if the writers were influenced by "God" they were still human beings. And ALL human beings have biases and prejudices. And that is bound to come through in their writing. For example, I can always tell whenever I read a newspaper or magazine article on abortion where the writer stands just by the language that he/she uses! The writer is suppossed to be unbiased and impartial, but I don't believe it is possible to be one hundred percent unbiased. A pro-choice person will use terms like "embryo" "fetus" while an anti choice person will use terms like "unborn child" for instance. By the way, the former are actually proper medical terms. Grrrr. I just love the term "partial birth abortion". It can't be found in ANY medical text book!
I find it very sad that sexism is still seen as acceptable, so long as people use the Bible to justify it. NOBODY would accept that African American people were "inferior" to White folks, and should "submit" to them. But it is perfectly acceptable to suggest that women should.
I have never understood sexism to be perfectly honest. It is completely irrational. I mean, there is NO evidence to suggest that men are smarter than women in ANY way! In fact, women have proven that when given the opportunities, they are just as capable as their male counterparts. There are women doctors, lawyers, surgeons, judges, correctional officers, police officers etc.
I feel that a lot of what christianity teaches is actually harmful. For example, at the clinic where I work we deal with other sexual health issues as well. And I remember meeting a young woman who had attempted suicide because she had come to the realization that she was a lesbian, and couldn't come to terms with it. Why not? Because her parents were both devout Catholics, and taught her it was a "sin". She was so afraid of going to hell.
I have met women who are married and in their thirties and forties who have NEVER had an orgasm. They were taught that sex was "bad" and that their vaginas were "dirty". They were told that men would not respect them if they showed an interest in sex, or let it be known that they liked sex. I have seen so much psychological damage done as a result of religion. It's sad.
I too remember reading a story where Jesus came to the aid of a woman(I believe she was a prostitute) who was about to be stoned to death. And He did say "he without sin cast the first stone".
I have used that argument on Christians before, and their lame response is "hate the sin not the sinner". They say that they can condemn a wrong act, without judging the person. It's BS!
Wow, this is getting long. ANd it's getting late. I have to get up early for work tomorrow. I am really enjoying talking to you. I hope we can continue this discussion later. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts. Have a good night.
Elaine
AnswerI feel the same way, it's refreshing to talk with someone who understands.
Yeah, it's been a "dirty" word since the 1980's when the Reagan administration took over. And if more people understood what feminism really is, they'd be proud to call themselves one. There are definitely stereotypes associated to it, and they're ridiculous. Like the man hating lesbians-I just read a book, Full Frontal Feminism by Jessica Valenti, and she covered SO much, and about the lesbian thing, she mentioned that lesbians pose a threat to the traditional male-dominating norm, because they show that women can be without men, and people who think traditionally are threatened by it. And the bra burning! That's a popular misconception, despite the fact it never happened. I think people too easily judge feminism and the points we're trying to make. Like at the 1968 Miss America Pageant, where women protested the pageant, saying that it wasn't ok for women to solely be judged by their looks, and that's demeaning. Of course people had to turn this into "anti beauty anti men" when it wasn't. I have a shirt that says "This is What a Feminist Looks Like", and to my pleasant surprise, people have had good reactions. At least the ones who speak to me, that is. The more women and men know about feminism and what it really is, I think they'll identify with it. Yes, I always want to say "Like to vote? Thank feminists." And so many other things too that women made possible.
Oh yes. The "moral abortion" argument. That is just ridiculous. So many of the antis think "Well, I HAD to have an abortion, but others need to think through all their choices." If they were so against abortion, they wouldn't have them. I'm sure they'll be happy, if abortion is illegalized, when their daughters bleed to death from an illegal abortion, or die from complications.
It is hard, but there definitely are those great men out there. Maybe they don't self identify as feminists (yet!) but there are those out there who fully believe in women's rights and equality. You don't need to downplay your intelligence or act differently, it's not worth it. Speaking up about being a feminist is a great thing to do though. And if they don't understand, a quick explanation may help. But it really helps you weed out those that will be bad for a relationship. And at one point, you'll come across a guy who fully supports you and your beliefs, shares them, and finds it cool. There are definitely those men out there.
Yeah, and to think how many things got lost or changed in translation.
Oh my goodness it is easy to spot the bias in articles about abortion! I just read a little paragraph the other day about how women aborting female fetuses are destroying women, and it was obviously biased. Using the term 'holocaust' to refer to abortion? That's just incredibly offensive. It doesn't matter to me WHY a woman aborts, that's none of my damn business! I just care that she is able to have safe access to one, and that no barriers should stand in her way. Ugh, it'd be so nice for people to use correct terminology. I always correct people about "partial-birth"-it's late term, and partial birth was made up by the anti-choice movement. It's just them using their rhetoric to appeal to people's emotions, since all the facts are against them.
It gets so tiring when people use the bible to justify their racism, misogyny, and all other forms of hatred. It's so acceptable to oppress others it's amazing. I mean, living in a culture where rape victims are blamed, females in power are either too bitchy or too feminine, it's hard. It's just these things are so acceptable, and it's not ok. Like, the most common double standard-girls are sluts, guys are players. People understand it's wrong, yet they still use it anyway. I know others probably get annoyed by me always pointing it out, but I'm not going to sit there like it's ok.
Sexism is just one of those things that's ingrained into people's minds, and it's wrong. There's always the "men are physically stronger" argument, and all I can say is 'so what?' Because of that, women are better rock climbers-men rely on their physical strength, so they end up in tough situations, but women rely on their brains, and they avoid those situations. It was an interesting thing a teacher brought up once. And there's nothing that makes men better than women at any profession. Yet many women leave their science and technology professions due to the harassment they encounter. It's a disgrace that we lose all these brilliant minds.
That's incredibly sad, I hope she was able to accept herself and cope with what her religion taught her. That's not fair at all. And for someone to have to face against their beliefs they've been raised with all their lives? That has to be so frightening. If only her parents could learn to accept everyone for who they are.
The ideas that women are taught about sex are so harmful. The men are supposed to like it, women are supposed to control their man's urges, and their sex drive shouldn't be high, men should initiate, etc. These ideas just cause damage. You have one side telling you to be chaste and virginal, the other telling you all that matters is how hot and sexually appealing you are. I feel so bad for those women; there needs to be more outreach about how no, sex isn't bad, and it isn't horrible to love it, it's actual natural and it's perfectly ok, as long as you want it. And the results of women having negative beliefs are never ending-low self esteem can mean self-objectification, which causes less enjoyment with sex, not being prepared for sex, so no birth control, and the list goes on.
If only THAT were true. Too bad screaming hateful things at women going into a clinic doesn't count has hating the sin. Even though it's not even a sin by the bible's standards. Oh well.
Yeah, it seems like I've managed to write half a novel here. I'm really enjoying talking with you too, I'm learning a lot! And if you get a message that says there have been too many follow-ups, just message me again with a new question form, it's so annoying that it happens, but I hope we can continue! Thank you, and have a good night (or day?) as well :)
