QuestionQUESTION: Hi Danielle. It's Angie again. It is so great talking to you as well! You are very articulate, and obviously very knowledgeable about this issue. I bet YOU never get stumped. I am just kicking myself right now. Please allow me to tell you about this frustrating and upsetting experience I had just this evening.
I was talking to a woman I believed was also a feminist and pro-choice(she has stated in the past that she does support a woman's right to choose) and we got onto the subject of whether a woman should require her male partners conscent/approval to obtain an abortion. I of course said no, and was shocked when she said that she believed the man should have a say in the matter.
She said that if the man wanted the baby and the woman didn't, he should be able to get a court injunction against her barring her from having an abortion, so long as he promises to obslove her of all parental responsibilities including financial obligations. And if HE is the one who wants her to have an abortion and she refuses, he should NOT be held responsible for helping to support that child.
The reason I got so damn frustrated was because even though I am one hundred percent pro-choice AND a hardcore feminist, I DO sympathize with men in that predicament. I have a close male friend whose ex girlfriend tricked him into being a father. He made it very clear that he did not want to have a child, and she swore up and down she was on the Pill. This was not a one night stand. They had been together for some time, and he trusted her. Turns out she was deliberately trying to get pregnant.
It DOES seem unfair that men have no say in it, since it does take two to make a baby. Sigh. But the fact is that the fetus is growing inside of her, and she is the one who is most affected by the pregnancy. There are certain risks that go along with pregnancy/childbirth, not to talk about how painful or traumatic it would be to be pregnant against your will.
But she argued nine months is just a short time compared to a lifetime, and that few women(she said less than one percent) in developed countries like the US actually die or suffer serious complication from pregnancy. I just got totally stumped. I felt strongly on a gut level that it would be wrong to force that woman to give birth against her will, but couldn't argue it you know? And now I feel like a total idiot!
I did make the argument that the government can not compel a person to donate blood or an organ(not even to their own living child!) nor can they compel a citizen to risk his/her own life to rescue someone else. For example, if you came across someone was drowning. And her response was that that is different, because pregnancy is a natural consequence of sex, and the woman knew that prior to having sex.
I feel women should be entitled to a satisfying sex life outside of marriage and procreation, but I certainly cant argue biology. Whether it's unfair or not, it IS a consequence of sex. And it IS women who get pregnant.
I ended up telling her this story about when I volunteered with a local pro-choice organization that operated an information/referral service for women seeking information about abortion, referrals etc. I got a call from a single mom who was about four or five months along, when she was told that she would have to be put on bed rest for the remainder of her pregnancy. Every time she would stand up she would start to hemmorahge! She had a child to care for, and she was the sole supporter of that child. Her response was that organizations such as "Right To Life" and other community agencies could have helped her.
That is probably true as well, and all I could say was "maybe she just didn't want to do it". I mean perhaps I am selfish, but I wouldn't want to spend four months confined to a bed, and I wouldn't trust anyone else(unless it were a close friend or family member) to watch over my child. And what about her job? Who would pay the rent and the bills in the mean time? I just got really flustered. I guess I am not the greatest debater(shrug). How would you have responsed?
Good for you for standing up to your classmate. People who believe that just because Palin is a woman she must have women's best interest at heart are ignorant! I mean, one would THINK that would be true, but her voting record clearly shows that it isn't. It baffles ME too how a woman could show such a lack of care and concern for other women. How a woman would make it her lifes mission to strip women of their rights. But alas, it is true.
"Pro life feminists" my ass! LOL Puhleese! That is just bogus. Certainly one can be personally opposed to abortion and be a feminist, so long as that person trusts and respects other women enough to give them the right to make their own decisions, based on their own personal morals/beliefs.
Well, I have rambled on enough here. Lets keep our conversation going!
Angie
ANSWER: It's easy to get stumped! Sometimes there's just so many things you can say to educate a person, that it's overwhelming and don't know where to begin. Happens to me. I also get really flustered and defensive. You're articulate yourself!
Until men are the ones carrying a pregnancy for 9+ months, the decision for whether or not a woman gives up her body for almost a year is up to her. Pregnancy can be a result of sex, and knowing that, the man should realize that if a pregnancy does happen and the woman decides to keep it and sue him for child support that's part of the consequence. Making it so a woman would need the father's permission to abort is placing ownership of the woman in the hands of the man. That never results in anything above horrific. 529 000 women a year die from childbirth. That's way, way more than necessary. And the states with the most anti-abortion laws also have the highest rates of infant mortality and high school dropouts.
Those "right to life" organizations wouldn't have helped her. They would have superficially supported her until the baby was born, then ditched her. They don't give a damn about babies, they care about birth happening. Which is why republicans vote against prenatal care for poor women, child health care, and reproductive rights. This woman NEEDED to be working in order to support herself and the child she already had. What she did was put her and her child first, the fetus behind themselves. If she had had the baby, she could have ended up in poverty, and that's no way for a child to be brought up.
It's so depressing that other women are out there fighting so vigorously to take away rights from other women. They're much better off spending their time fighting poverty, crime, and for better healthcare and education-not what other women do with their uteri.
People mix up the different beliefs-one that abortion is not the choice you would make (although saying what you would do in a hypothetical situation is extremely difficult to do) but that's not what every other woman's choice would be, and the ones that think women who abort are murderers. It just really, really sucks to see a part of my anatomy on a voting ballot. That hit me a couple weeks ago, and I was flooded by such powerful feelings about reproductive rights. Here are all these people discussing what happens with women's bodies!! It's disgraceful. And yes, I'd love to keep this conversation going!!
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi there. I hope you are having a nice week-end. It's nice chatting with you. It's nice to know I am not the only one who gets flustered when debating the subject of abortion. That is MY problem too! I never know where to begin. LOL
I am still bothered over the fact that I feel I didn't argue my position well enough. Basically the woman I got into this debate with totally downplayed what a woman goes through during pregnancy. She had an answer for everything. When I said that the woman could die during childbirth, she said that happened less than one percent of the time in Canada and the US. When I said that childbirth was excruciatingly painful, she said a woman has the option of being given pain medication. She also stated that compared to a lifetime of parenting and providing for that child(which the man would be an equal participant in) nine months isn't long. She didn't even think it was so bad that that woman would have to spend five months confined to her bed. She was like "she could have had people come in to take care of her child, prepare meals, clean the house, keep her company" and blah blah. But what about after the fact? Well, she could go on government assistance she says. Are you getting frustrated yet? LOL These people are sickening! How can a woman(especially one who has been pregnant herself!) say that pregnancy is a walk in the park, and as long as the woman doesn't die it's okay?
And why are they so anti sex? It's like they are out to punish women. Is it so hard for them to believe that women get horny too? LOL Excuse the language, but come on. I mean, people have sex for lots of different reasons besides procreation. IN fact, I'd venture to say that most people aren't thinking of making babies when they have sex.
What gets to me is that she SAYS she is one hundred percent pro choice! Are you kidding me? Her argument could easily be turned around. She says as long as the biological father is willing to care for the child he should be able to stop her from aborting. But using that logic why not just say what the anti choice say? If you don't want it, just give birth and give it up for adoption. What's the difference? And something occurred to me. How do we establish the paternity of a fetus? I am not one hundred percent certain here, but I don't THINK that can be done. Who a woman has been intimate with is NONE of the governments damn business anyway! If she doesn't want to give up who the father is, that is her decision. What about her right to privacy?
She says that men should have a fifty percent say right? But where does the woman's feelings come in? She is basically giving him ONE HUNDRED percent say, because according to HER argument HE is the final decision maker. The fact is they both can't have fifty percent say if their opinions differ. SOmeone has to give right?
Oh, I also mentioned that if a woman had to have a C section or episiotimy(sic?) she would have permanent scarring, and that women are often sick and in pain for some time after giving birth. again she used that argument about modern medicine, and how now they can do it with virtually no scarring.
Why am I thinking of all these arguments AFTER the fact? Grrr. I just resent ANYONE telling me that a man should be able to tell me what to do with my body. And I was thinking, even if it IS true(i'm not sure?) that the risk of dying is less than one percent shouldn't it still be up to the woman to decide whether she wants to take that risk? Isn't that called "informed consent"? For example, I am highly diabetic and have high blood pressure. Lets say I want to have an elective surgical procedure right. And the doctor tells me there is a very high risk that my body could not withstand the surgery and I could die. As an adult I have the right to decide to take that risk anyway. So long as the doctor made certain that I was aware of it first. If I needed chemotherapy and refused, nobody could force me right? It all boils down to the right to decide what happens to ones body. If no one can force lifesaving medical treatment on me, and they can't force me to donate blood or organs how can they force me to carry a pregnancy?
Get this! We have a shortage of organ doners in this country, but they can't even remove organs from the deceased unless he/she consents to it! A dead person should have more rights than a woman? Give me a break!
Alright, I'll stop rambling. I needed to get that off my chest! LOL
Hope to hear from you soon,
ANgie
AnswerI'm having a pretty good weekend, I hope you are too. On Saturday, I stopped by my local democratic headquarters, and one woman who's in charge said Sarah Palin's speech was the best thing for them-they've had people come pouring in. And Obama's campaign made 10 million dollars after her speech.
Maybe her pregnancy was easy, but other women's aren't. What about the women who have such bad morning sickness in the first trimester, they can't keep any food down? I doubt the medication will make it a walk in the park, especially the birthing part. And there's women who prefer not to use medication, so saying it takes care of the pain doesn't do anything. And government assistance wouldn't provide enough help. Those receiving welfare live below the poverty line.
Yeah, anti-sex. Especially for women/girls. Some belive that women only have sex for their husband's pleasure since the woman herself must never want to have it. People are really, really uncomfortable with women's sexuality-hence names like "slut" and "whore". A woman gets called name after name for having sex, but men are referred to as "players" and "studs". Women in control of their sexuality really throws people off.
I don't think the woman has to reveal who the father is, unless it gets taken to court and a paternity test is ordered. And pro-choice doesn't mean "but if the guy is involved, she should be forced to gestate". The guy made the decision to sleep with the woman, and he should damn ell know pregnancy can happen, and if it does happen, it's up to the woman to decide. Sure, he can have his opinion, but until he has to deal with it like she does, he can take a seat. A woman on the internet once described pregnancy like this, and I love how she did it: she compares it to building a car. The guy has odd number pages, the woman even numbered. They combine the pages, but the woman has to assemble all the parts and work hard to put it together, and then the guy comes along and says he had an equal part in making it. No dice.
I don't know where she gets her info from, but C-sections DO scar, and the recovery time is much longer than a vaginal birth. And sometimes they're done when the woman doesn't want it to be done, which is absolutely horrific to me. And the episiotomy can cause horrible problems. Those too are done when not needed much of the time. Letting a natural tear happen is much better for the body. Many women have a difficult time with sex after an episiotomy, and discomfort.
They want control of women's bodies, and think children should be a punishment for sex. How could someone who claims to like children believe something like that? With pro-choicers, it's "every child a wanted child." And it's so horrifying to hear people talk about a part of your anatomy and what you should and should not be able to do with it. Do they realize how hurtful that is? I mean, in class one day the teacher showed us a clip of the debates mccain and Obama did, and how they answered regarding abortion. And this turned into a debate on whether or not guys have a say. So the teacher goes off on his story about how his sister got an illegal abortion and how tragic it was for his family-thus why he feels men have a say. And then he goes on to say girls weren't using the birth control correctly, hence their pregnancies. I was so overwhelmed with disgust, sadness, and offended beyond believe I had tears in my eyes, and after class I had to call my mom, and I ended up in tears. It's like- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MY UTERUS. MINE. I've decided that if the teacher does any more ridiculous things like that I'll go in and talk with the other teachers who run the program.
I never thought of that! wow, a dead person having more rights. What an insult, really. There was a murder case where a pregnant woman was killed. The guy got a longer sentence for the "death" of the fetus than the woman. Disgusting.
haha, you're not rambling! Just voicing your opinion, and I'm glad! It helps so much to have someone like-minded to talk to :)
