QuestionQUESTION: Hi. I was watching an hour television special on CNN this evening about the abortion debate (and Dr. George Tiller's tragic murder) and one of the people interviewed was a doctor who said that abortion are rarely necessary to preserve the life and health of the mother. He talked about how most health concerns that may arise can usually be dealt with, including mental health issues. He said for mental health issues there are a lot of drugs to treat depression that will not harm the fetus, the woman could see a psychiatrist, get therapy etc. So in other words, abortions are generally done for convenience, because the woman simply doesn't want to be pregnant. And he also implied that pregnancy is generally not that uncomfortable.
How would you respond to that argument because it's one I hear often?
And secondly, what about the argument that a woman can simply give her child up for adoption? I usually respond by saying that adoption can be very traumatic. That most women don't feel comfortable with the idea of someone else raising their child, not knowing for sure whether that child will be loved, properly taken care of etc. But now we have open adoption, where the mother can still continue to play a role in the childs life, without having to take responsibility for his/her care.
Thanks very much for your time. I feel very strongly that a woman should have the right to choose, but to be honest I am not the greatest debater, and often feel stumped. It's just a gut feeling that I have. That it is cruel and wrong to force pregnancy on a woman. Thanks.
Janelle
ANSWER: Hi Janelle :)
Well, it's not true, but even if it were, why should a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant be forced to be so? Inmates on death row aren't forced to donate blood or organs, so why should a woman? And psychiatric drugs can take a while to have an effect (some up to 6 weeks), and most people need to try several different kinds. A psych drug will not make you feel any better about gestating a pregnancy against your will. Pregnancy can put a woman in danger of organs failing, if the fetus is dead she could get an infection or hemorrhage, and pregnancy not uncomfortable? Each woman is different-for some it's a breeze, for others it's 9 months of vomiting and discomfort.
I hate this argument! Even with open adoption, the woman isn't the parent. You still have to see your kid raised by other people, and miss out on their growing up. Does it work for some women? Definitely, but women who have negative adoption experiences really don't have their voices listened to. That's 9+ months of pregnancy, labor and delivery, and then letting go. For some, that's still traumatic even with open adoptions. And mostly, it's white babies who are adopted. Of the 169,000 kids waiting to be adopted right now, most are disabled, over the age of 6, and black.
It's hard to debate! You can have all the right ideas, but getting them out is difficult. I'm still working on it (one of the last debates I had? It ended in me screaming at the other person, so...well, I bet I got my point across hehe). And things always get jumbled in my head when I'm angry at who I'm debating. Your welcome, and thanks for taking the time to explore your questions, it's always a great thing to do.
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QUESTION: Hi. Thanks for answering some of my questions. I hope you don't mind a follow up. I would like to become better at debating this issue. That is what happens to me too! I get so frazzled and upset, that I can't be calm, rational and articulate. It's frustrating!
And maybe this is kind of sexist, but it's worse when it's a guy. Because a guy doesn't understand what it's like to be female and to have to deal with a monthly reminder of your fertility, social pressure to have a baby (even if you don't want to have children) finding out your pregnant, being judged for it, going through nine months of pregnancy etc It kind of seems to me that people who are anti abortion (and maybe this is on a subconscious level, so they don't even realize it!) believe that being pregnant is wonderful. When you point out that pregnancy can be uncomfortable, painful, scary etc they look at you like "huh?" What are you talking about? Pregnancy is a beautiful gift from god and blah blah blah. Or if you explain that pregnancy can ruin a woman's life, they think you are nuts. That woman MUST be selfish. Surely nothing she might want to do(i.e. go to college, have a career) can be more meaningful and fulfiling than having a baby.
You are so right. Why can't we force a rapist or murderer to donate blood(even though there is a shortage?). That is something that takes less than a minute, is relatively painless, and the worst that can happen to most people is that they faint(usually because of anxiety). Why does a person who has broken the law and violated the rights of another have more rights than a woman?
The other day I compared being pregnant against your will to rape, and the person i was debating with was just outraged. She was like "how can you say that? A fetus is innocent". But it IS the same thing to me. Having something growing inside of me, using me for it's own purposes. And I can't say no. I can't defend myself.
And want to hear something shocking? Or at least it was shocking to ME! This guy I know thinks that even if a woman is RAPED she should still be forced to have the baby, because the baby is innocent and shouldn't be punished because of the father. And then went on to say that a lot of times wome who are raped "put themselves in that situation". Like he used the example of a female correctional officer working at a male prison who was brutally attacked and raped. he said she knew she was working with violent men, and that a lot of men (understandbly according to him) have a hard time with women being in power. he wanted to "regain that control" "not that I'm justifying his actions" he hastily adds. Disgusting huh? He said women should not be working in men's prisons for this reason. Also, because they are physically weaker and can not defend themselves. Well, they shouldn't have to! That's the whole idea behind Muslim women having to cover their heads, not being allowed to leave the house without a male relative etc. Because it's our responsibility to keep men in line. Anyway, getting back to the abortion thing. He said he sympathizes with the woman, but that it would be wrong to take her anger out on the baby. I was so outraged by that I was speechless.
I am very rebellious by nature, and I can not stand the thought of a man (a man who violated me to boot!) having that much power and control over me. Not only did he take away my right to say no and control my body, now he is going to force me to live a life i did not want or choose. And I will forever be connected to him. See, I'm not that articulate. All these feelings and emotions just overwhelm me. But basically becomng a mother is a life altering decision. It's going to change everything. And he got to decide that for me.
Alright, I'll stop rambling now. LOL Perhaps you can share your thoughts with me. And if you have any tips on how to be a better debater please let me know. Thanks.
Janelle
ANSWER: I love follow ups :)
I totally get that. It's like "where's your uterus again?" That's not sexist, but what is incredibly sexist is these people thinking all women want babies and that a baby will automatically be the Best Thing Ever. Some of the most vehemently pro-choice women I know are mothers (and have had abortions)- they had their kid(s) by choice, not because they were forced to.
Yeah. And I love how they get such great health care, yet pregnant women can rarely find an insurance provider. NICE.
So what if it's innocent? If it's aborted, it won't know anyway. And it still has to use that woman's body for its survival. No one has the right to use another person's body-I can't waltz up to some anti choice crazie and demand one of their kidneys.
What he's saying is misogynistic. We live in a rape culture. Blame the victim, she MUST have done something to deserve it! No. NEVER. Without the rapists, there's no rape. If she wanted that job, or needed it, she has every right to take it and be safe. Guys don't rape for sex, they do it for power and control. What if a female prisoner castrated a male guard (not even comparable)? Or RAPED him with a tool? Did that guard have it coming?! I swear, this is why so many rapes happen, so many go unreported, and even those that are, the victim is still blamed. Men are responsible for what they do-that isn't anyone elses responsibility but his. For example, if i had been you (kudos on being calm!), and I had punched him, that'd be MY responsibility. I could have not punched. He didn't force me too or even ask for it. Ok that's a horrible example. If he's walking alone at night and gets mugged, he expects to be blamed, right? Cuz that's how rape victims are treated. And 9 months of a constant reminder of it? That's torture. He can come back when he has a uterus and lives the world as a female does.
That's one of the best things I've heard, you articulated that beautifully. The most important thing is to try as best you can to stay calm. I'm probably not the greatest debater myself, I just wait until they've stopped and unleash what I have to say. Oh, and after wards I go and listen to music because I NEED to cool down. Or, my "angry music" as I call it. Probably doesn't help, but just remember you have the facts and logic on your side, so you'll come out on top.
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QUESTION: Hello again! Trust me, I DID want to punch him in the mouth but I managed to control myself. Rape is another thing that men can never really understand you know? I know that some men have been victims of sexual abuse, but the majority of rape victims are female. Few men can understand that feeling of powerlessness. You are so right. It IS NOT about sex, it's about wanting to have total control over another human being. A lot of rapists hate and fear women. It isn't because a woman wore a short skirt or a low cut top. If that were the case ALL men would be rapists right? And that's kind of insulting to men as well. To basically say that men are mindless sex machines who simply can not control themselves. Besides, even elderly women have been victims of rape. Somehow I doubt an 80 year old woman was so desireable the man couldnt' control himself (eye roll).
Those who are against abortion even in cases of rape bother me the most. I mean, how cruel can you be? And did you know that a rapist actually has "parental rights" once that child is born? Isn't that disgusting? And again, even if she gives it up for adoption she still has to feel it growing inside of her every day. I simply can't imagine. Did you hear about that nine year old girl in Brazil I think it was who impregnanted by her stepfather? The mother sought an abortion for her and both the mother and the doctor who performed the abortion were excommunicated from the catholic church. But of course the step father wasn't. Can a nine year old girl even handle a pregnancy and childbirth?
I wanted to tell you about this debate going on on-line right now between abortion rights advocate Christina Page and that scumbucket Troy Newman from "Operation Rescue" about late term abortion. The two of them debate each other and then at the end readers are asked to vote for the person they feel won the debate and made the most compelling arguments. You would probably find their exchange interesting, and it only takes a second to vote. Last time I checked Newman was in the lead probably because he got all of his anti abortion friends to go on and vote for him. You can even leave a comment if you'd like. Here is the link:
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/524/abortion-debate.html
If you get a chance to check it out let me know what you think. Newman is a total asshole! Can you believe he doesn't even condone abortion even if the mother's LIFE is in danger? Does he even think that women are human beings? I mean it's one thing to disagree with abortion in general, but surely any sane, reasonable and compassionate human being would make an exception if the woman was going to DIE? What about OUR right to life? Then again, I can see his point. I mean, how selfish of a woman to want to save her own life. Unbelievable!
Janelle
Janelle
AnswerI don't care if a woman walks around naked-you have to have a sick view that she is available sexually to you to rape her. I had to walk to a bathroom a few weeks ago in the dark, and while I had my precious dog with me and I was a holding a knife AND I was pretty damn safe, I was terrified. How many guys would feel that way. I remember my ex mentioning walking around the streets of SF at night alone, and my response was "uh, I would never feel safe." And his reply "well yea I'm a guy." Oh, he also had this quote in a notebook about how it's not the fact that a dude is a dude that makes him threatening, it's just his...demeanor. Something really dumb. Um no, that's society. What's more threatening- a guy walking down a street, or a woman walking down a street with an AK-47...or two? I digress...
There's also a "biological" explanation evolutionary psychologists try to make for rape. It's that a man needs to spread his seed! Which definitely explains the rape of old women, children, and men, right? (They've never answered me when i asked that). They also try to justify all sexism, so w/e.
I was just thinking about that case the other day. Really people? It's not ok to abort, but it's ok to rape and abuse. Great message I'm getting from the church. Also, reproductive rights are only bestowed upon CERTAIN women. Unless you're violated, out of luck. I think she was carrying twins, too? Maybe not. Either way, a vaginal birth would have been painful, and I'm not even sure if her hips have developed for it. And a c-section on a 9 year old?!?!?! They're bad enough on 30 year old women.
Oh I read that! Thanks for the link. I thought something MUST have gone wrong for him to be winning. Ugh. Cristina's book "freedom, politics, and the war on sex: how the pro-choice movement saved america" is a GREAT read. So much information. Really though, how dare I put myself first. What a horrible...sane, rational thing. No way they view women as equals. More like living incubators.
