QuestionQUESTION: Hi. I just had this frustrating conversation with a woman who said she didn't care if McCain/Palin were to get elected and decided to outlaw abortion, because if she wanted one she'd find a way to get it. She said there would always be doctors who would have the courage to help women, or women could cross the border etc What do you think? Thanks.
Chrissy
ANSWER: Hi Chrissy :)
Finding a qualified doctor willing to perform the procedure is not common. You HAVE to "know people"-even then it's really difficult. She might be only able to find someone who claims to know what they're doing. The risks are much too high. And things like crossing the border and finding a doctor are only for the middle-upper class, mostly upper. So the majority of women would be left in a terrible, terrible situation.
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QUESTION: I was thinking more about this, and thought about a whole host of potential problems. I mean, say abortion were illegal right? How would I know who to ask? I wouldn't know whether my doctor were pro-choice or not, and women's groups that tried to help women covertly wouldn't be able to advertise. And even if I found someone, how would I know he/she were really a doctor? If I had complications as a result of his/her incompetence or negligence there would be no legal recourse. I read that when abortion was illegal most women didn't even know the doctors name, and many were afraid to go to the hospital for fear that they would be reported. A doctor would surely know whether a woman had an abortion recently right, and be required to report it if it were illegal. A lot of women might attempt to do it themselves too. And some doctors may try to take advantage of a woman's situation by charging her an exhorbitant amount of money or even requesting or demanding sexual favors. I read that doctors didn't even use anesthetic, because it took too long. And where would they perform the procedure? It would be too risky to do it in their office right? Those are just some things I was thinkin about.
But the main thing also is that's really not the point right? Even if women could find ways to do it anyway, we would still lose our right legally. There would be a lot of shame and guilt attached to it. if a woman needed someone to talk to afterwards she couldn't.
It's juxt her attitude was like no one listens to the government anyway. But if it were illegal and treated like murder and the women got caught she would face prison time or at the very least legal sanction. So women would be criminals. TO me what she is saying is akin to saying that "who cares if the government bans books, with the internet I could get them elsewhere". You know what I am trying to say? Cause I couldn't really articulate it, but I KNOW what I mean! LOL I personally just wouldn't feel safe getting an abortion if it were illegal you know? It's just sad that people are just so apathetic. I really like Barack Obama but I hear people grumbling about how they don't bother to vote(especially young people!) cause politicians are all teh same, they all tell you what you want to hear and blah blah. I think that Sarah Palin is kinda scary. I read that when she was mayor she passed legislation that actually required rape victims to pay out of their own pocket for a rape kit outrageous huh? And my friend was like "someone probably made her sign that". In other words politicians don't think for themselves and are really just pupets. If you heard palin talk it is so obvious she is being coached, and doesn't have any original thoughts. Obama seems more genuine to me. Anyway I digress(smiles). Thanks.
Chrissy
ANSWER: You could only rely on word of mouth-friends, acquaintances, relatives. But then what if you want to keep it a private matter-NEED to? Or have an anti-choice environment.
No legal recourse. A major problem in places where it's illegal is the "doctor' sexually assaulting and/or raping the woman. Where can she go? Nowhere. It's frightening. And women are left on their own when it comes to complications. Usually the doctor would make you agree that if anything goes wrong, their name won't be involved. An examination wouldn't necessarily show they had terminated a pregnancy, but the hormone remains in your system for awhile, which they'd see on a urine test. All the things you're bringing up do happen when abortion is a crime, it's unnerving. Self-inducing, which is horrifically dangerous, not having the funds, or having to use up your savings. I'm not sure about anesthetics-maybe if you were high up socially and got it in a hospital as a D&C (used for miscarriages, doctors used it to perform terminations). The stories I read, the women described intense pain. I remember reading the actress Lana Turner's autobiography, and during an abortion, the pain was so intense her mother had to hold her hand over her mouth to stifle her screaming. She had been injected by a guy for the induction, and ended up in debilitating pain. If a high ranking actress was going through that with an abortion, imagine what it must have been like for lower-class women. Some doctors did perform in offices, but many times would go to a house, another building, a run down place, a car-any place possible.
The shame and guilt placed upon women who terminate is disgusting. Controlling your own body shouldn't be an issue. And it's estimated that 35% of American women will have had an abortion by age 45. 1 million a year. It's time that people recognized it as a common, safe surgical procedure (when legal), and a significant moment in a woman's reproductive life. no matter what they feel afterwards, help should be available.
I totally get where you're coming from. When it's legal, you can go to a certified clinic and know you're going to be safe. When you do it illegally, you're taking a huge risk. I HEAR THAT TOO!! About not voting b/c "all politicians are the same." That INFURIATES me. All I can respond is "Try telling me Bill Clinton's and Ronald Reagan's presidency were the same.'' I actually said that to a friend the other day, and he asked me to point out the differences! I mean, my goodness. One helped a woman's right to choose, the other attacked it viciously. Such huge differences it's mind boggling.
Yes, Palin did do that. It's appalling. Not only are sexual violence survivors blamed, they have to pay to give evidence to lock a criminal up.Signing something like that is no mistake-she doesn't sit there signing things not knowing what she's doing. Just like when she signed a bill that would decrease funding for a place where teen moms can go and get on their feet. I'm looking forward to seeing how she handles the debates against Biden. I hope he tears her apart. of course, any criticism of Palin is sexism to republicans, who didn't mind calling Hillary a nagging bitch. Go figure. Obama and Biden are amazing examples of how to lead-they have their own personal beliefs, but the recognize that those beliefs shouldn't interfere with the wellbeing of the country. Biden believes life begins at conception, but he doesn't let that interfere with reproductive rights. Obama is personally opposed to abortion i believe, but recognizes that illagalizing it will only hurt women, and he doesn't want children to be punishment. i hope with all my heart they take the White house.
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QUESTION: Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. It's nice to talk to someone who "gets it" you know? It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to get into discussions about the election, because people's ignorance and apathy depresses me! Seriously. Something else struck me about her argument. It was totally self centered. In other words, as long as I could still get an abortion if I needed one, who the hell cares if OTHER WOMEN die? That is(in my opinion) one of the problems in our society today. People are very self absorbed, and care only about what affects them directly.
It was frustrating because whenever I would mention something I had read about Palin she was quick to point out that the media could not be trusted, that they blew things out of proportion and took things out of context. She mentioned the comment Barack Obama made about the lipstick and the pig as an example. But all you have to do is look at their voting records. The greatest predictor of future behavior is past behavior right? And I have seen LIVEE television interviews where Palin has been questioned about her stance on abortion and other social issues. She is VERY conservative and PROUD of her views. It isn't as though she attempts to hide them, although she can be quite charming can't she?
What she really wants to do is have Roe V Wade overturned, and allow the states to decide. And my friend was like "In a democracy the people decide". But that should not be the case when it comes to certain inailienable human rights. Remember, the vast majority of people didn't believe that women should have the right to vote and the majority of people believed in racial segregation etc etc. One of my favorite quotes is "If a million people believe a foolish thing it is still a foolish thing". When it comes to what I do with my body, I do NOT want ANYONE else to have a say in my decision unless it is someone I CHOOSE to involve(i.e. my partner).
I am sick to death of people on the right crying sexism every time Palin is critisized. I don't think Palin should be exempt from having to answer tough questions or from scrutiny and critisism just because she is a woman. Equality works both ways! Funny too how all of a sudden the evangelical christian wingnuts are talking about "equal rights" for women. These are biblical literalists. The bible CLEARLY states that women should not be in possitions of authority over men. The bible has been used for centuries to deny women equal rights. So give me a break! Just because Palin has a vagina doesn't mean she should be treated with kid gloves, and it sure doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to disagree with her.
Which leads me to something else LOL. There has been talk about what the "punishment" should be for women who commit the horrific "crime" of abortion(eye roll) and guess what?! The vast majority of anti choice folks DO NOT believe women should be punished! They want the doctors to be punished, but the women need support and understanding(perhaps some counseling). After all women are victims. We are too stupid to make intelligent decisions. We are easily manipulated. How paternalistic huh? Sickening! And they object to pro choice people saying that illegalizing abortion would turn women into criminals. HELLO! ANYONE who breaks the law is a criminal, so it only stands to reason that if abortion were against the law and a woman sought one out anyway she would be a criminal right? Idiots! Forgive me, but these people make me SO mad!
Again, it isn't the point that women could quite possibly find ways around it. In countries where it is illegal to speak out against your government for example, people still find ways of getting their ideas out there, networking with like minded people etc. But such laws contradict the principles of a democracy. It's the principle of the thing!!! Grrrr.
One last thing. I was reading an article in US magazine, and I was kind of worried because in a lot of ways Sarah Palin DOES seem like a feminist and a progressive woman. I mean, I can certainly see why some women would like her or be fooled by her. She is the breadwinner in the family, is very ambitious and driven, independent, involved in a lot of activities that have been traditionally male dominated etc. So that concerns me. Sigh. She is actually being portrayed in a very positive light for the most part in the media.
Oh, and if I hear ONE MORE TIME about how pretty she is I'm going to scream! Who cares? I don't want to take her out on a date or take her to bed! LOL Looks are irrelevant. It should be a persons character, principles and values that mattter.
That being said, and I know this may sound a bit shallow so forgive me(LOL) but I have noticed something(I'm very observant!). I have NEVER seen Palin in a pant suit. She is ALWAYS wearing skirts. This may sound silly but I just think a female politician commands more respect in pants(shrug). And I kind of wondered if that has something to do with her religious beliefs, because the bible actually prohibits women from wearing pants("mens garments").
Well I have talked your ear off here. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. I want to be prepared for the next time! I think I gave pretty good arguments(basically the same ones I outlined in my response to your first answer) I just couldn't get he to see what I was saying which was frustrating. I can't believe how little some people value their rights.
I too get a little cynical sometimes, and I have to say I don't agree with Barack Obama on ALL the issues. For example, he supports the death penalty. I think it is barbaric and cruel, and would prefer to vote for a candidate who was against it. But sometimes you just have to go with the lesser of two evils. Although I DO like him overall, and his wife as well. I hope to hear back from you Danielle. Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me and share your perspectives.
Chrissy
AnswerThanks for talking with me too! Same here. the way some people I know talk about the election is so aggravating. I'm like "ok, don't vote. But don't complain about whatever happens in 2009." YES. "me me me" is what it's all about. Forget that it could be your daughter, girlfriend, co-worker, or aunt.
It's amusing how Palin supporter's are calling out Obama's comment. McCain referred to Hillary Clinton directly as a pig, and the republicans didn't blink an eye. For them, it's only sexism when it's against Palin.
I don't get the whole "let states vote on it" thing. THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO VOTE ON MY UTERUS! One court decision should be made to say "abortion is a fundamental right of women, and interfering with that creates danger to not only the woman but our society."
Oh yes. They label Palin as a feminist, too. She is a woman who has benefited dearly from feminism, but that does not make her a feminist. "feminists for life" is such an oxymoron. And this is the same part who's candidate (Ronald Reagan) referred to young, single, poor colored women receiving government assistance as "welfare queens". Same party whose leaders voted against the Lily Ledbetter Act, which would have made it easier for employees to sue over unequal pay. the hypocrisy is mind blowing.
Women need to be sheltered from the evils of reproductive choice, of course. It's not like they can think through their options and come to a decision that is best for them. Some states want to make so not only can you not have an abortion, you can't go to another state to get one, and anyone who goes with you is an accomplice. What control of women's bodies?! Goodness.
No feminist will be fooled by Palin. Anyone willing to take a second should be able to see right through her. A good thing that happened was after her RNC speech, the Obama camp made 10 million $. People responded.
The comments made about her are disgusting, and they're coming from republicans. "hottest VP ever" or "I want to be with her in bed" are completely disgusting and sexist. The republicans are very choosy for when the word sexism can be applied.
I never noticed about her always wearing skirts. That's an excellent observation though! I agree, I bet it has to do with her whole "feminine" persona. God forbid she appear to manly in a pantsuit!
I enjoy hearing what you have to say! And I hope you don't have to encounter such ignorant people, but they'll always be there. If it helps, Obama thinks the death penalty should only be used with much caution, not as a go-to thing. He did come out and say that child rapists should receive the death penalty. I have to say, I'm confused on the death penalty. I can see both sides to it, and I'm not sure which one I'll go with. I don't think it should be used as freely as it is, but there's something about certain criminals that I think deserve the death penalty. Haha, i have to figure it out. Thanks for talking wight me, and if you ever want to, feel free to message me again. Good luck with educating people. It's frustrating, but I think it's always worth a try.
