QuestionHi Danielle! It's me, Elaine. I was told I had asked one too many follow-up questions. Oops! LOL I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. Before I begin to address some of the things that you discussed in your e-mail to me, I wanted to share a response I got from another expert on the site regarding my dilemna with my partner's newfound religious beliefs. I DID made a decision by the way to end the relationship. It's tough, because a part of me still loves him. And I can't help thinking about all of the good times we shared, and what he USED to be like. It's so sad that religion had to come along and destroy a good man and a good relationship. Chances are we won't even be able to continue being friends. Sigh.
Anyway, this guy is a total jerk! It's obvious that HE too is a "Christian" and sympathizes with my partner. I asked him basically the exact same question I asked you. I thought it might be a good thing to get a male's perspective. But he's obviously a chauvenist. Yuck! I was quite offended at his response, but decided not to bother getting into a debate with him. What is the point? Here is his first response:
Here are my thought. It seems that since you are opposed to what his worldview brings to the table you need to think about moving on. He was also honest from the beginning with who he was I assume. Then something traumatic happened and he changed as I understand it.
Dating is when you get info to find out if you are going to stay with someone. You are getting info that lets you know the future of this relationship is not healthy. If you try to change him that would be unfair. So I think you need to sit with him and lay out what you have laid out here and see what he says. Because you said several times in this post that you are a "strong feminist" I wonder if you are being shown that you may have some irrationality with your beliefs. Who knows I don't know you, but I wonder given what you have said. Now faced with something that doesn't "buy" into what you believe you are feeling threatened.
I responded to him, and said there was nothing "irrational" about believing that men and women are equal, and should have equal rights. I also said that I didn't want to belong to a religion that taught hatred and intolerance. He responsed with this:
I look at the world through different lenses. As a father, husband, counselor etc...When I read you writing it seems you look at the world through the lens of a feminist. You can choose to do that. Yet, at the same time when you look through this lens and approach the world in this way it will turn some people off. I think a wiser approach to take is to recognize the different beliefs and respect them even if they go against what you believe. I'm sure Mother Theresa, Bishop Tutu and Billy Graham would disagree with your view of Christianity teaching hatred. Yet, they would still approach you respectfully I'm sure. There seems to be venom behind your writing. I don't know you and if I think you come across that way then how must you come across to people you work with or see you occasionally. I am not attempting to judge you, but give you a perception of what you may be putting out there into the world. Good luck in your endeavors.
David
What do you think about THAT?! You know what? I think it is normal and healthy to be angry and indignant when you are treated unfairly or encounter injustice. For example, don't black people have the right to express outrage when they are treated differently because of their skin color? If it weren't for those few who got fed up with being treated like second class citizens, and had the courage to challenge mainstream thinking, black people would still be sitting at the back of the bus!
I also feel that I have the right to feel hurt and angry with my partner for demanding that I change who I am to please him. Obviously this man is threatened by a woman who is not afraid to stand up for herself! Sure, there will be people who are turned off by my feminist views. But no matter who you are or what you believe in, there will always be people who will not agree. And chances are the people that would be turned off are not people I would want as friends anyway. We have a tendency to gravitate towards people who have a similar world view, similar interests etc
Also, he talks about respecting other people's beliefs. Well, how far should we take that? I remember this heated classroom discussion I had back in college about female genital mutilation. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous how many people(including women!) said that we should RESPECT cultural and religious beliefs that differ from our own. True to an extent, but we have to be careful. Because people can use religion to justify just about everything. When religious beliefs conflict with basic human rights, I think the latter should prevail. This is a form of mutilation! ANd most little girls and young women are NOT given a choice in the matter. There is no legitmate medical reason for female circumcision, and not only does it deprieve women of sexual pleasure, it can lead to serious complications down the road.
Should I respect the beliefs of people who belong to white supremacist groups? What about men who believe they should have the right to beat their wife and children? How can I have respect for something that I personally feel is immoral? I don't know if I am making any sense here, but I think you understand what I am saying. There are some things that a civilized society should NOT tolerate, including the enslavement and abuse of women.
Interesting you should mention the book "Full Frontal Feminism". A friend of mine just lent me a copy of that book, and I am planning on starting it today. It looks interesting!
I think that is so true about same sex relationships(particularly lesbian relationships) threatening people. Particularly Christian Conservatives!
This is the same reason behind the laws in certain states banning the sale of vibrators. God forbid a woman should learn how to pleasure herself and fulfil her own sexual needs. Ther are actually still laws on the books that prohibit any form of sexual activity other than intercourse. As you and I both know, most women can not achieve orgasm through intercourse alone, and need some form of clitroal stimulation.
Christian conservatives are also threatened by the freedom that birth control and abortion affords women. The thing that bothers them the most is that it enables us to enjoy sex outside the context of marriage and procreation, without consequences. It also gives women more choices. Marriage and motherhood are no longer the ONLY options available to women. And that infuriates them!
They do not want to see women in leadership possitions. Look at the fierce opposstion Hillary Rodham Clinton faced. They felt so threatened by the idea of a female President, especially one who is known for being an advocate of women's rights.
This may be an unpopular view, but I have always felt that children hold women back. Because the brunt of the burden of childrearing still falls on the woman's shoulders. Studies have shown that even in households where both partners work, it is still the woman who is responsible for the majority of child care and house hold tasks. She doesn't have as much time to devote to her career, and her career will often take a backseat.
I have NEVER wanted children for that reason. A lot of people think women work only out of economic necessity but I actually enjoy my job. I find it challenging and interesting, and I like feeling like I am making a difference And besides, I don't want to depend on a man. But a lot of women who are dedicated to their careers and have children are seen as being "selfish". No one expects a man to give up HIS career. Of course not!
I think that the reason we don't see more women in possitions of power is because child rearing responsibiblities hold them back. I wish that more women would decide not to have children or at least wait until later on in life to have them. people will look at you as though you have two heads if you are a woman who says she doesn't wish to get married and have children. Grrrr. It is so annoying. Then you will get that whole "well dear, you will change your mind someday".
To be honest, I don't really care for children. I don't like being around them. I find them quite annoying. Again, another thing that is not politically correct or socially acceptable to say.
It may be true that on average men are physically stronger, but that only gives them the upper hand in limited situations. Brawn is not a requirement for being sucessful in most jobs. For example, it doesn't matter how physically strong a doctor, lawyer, judge, politician, University professor etc is. That is irrelevant. It's all about what's between their ears, and there is certainly NO evidence that women are somehow less intelligent as men are.
It totally drives me up the wall when I hear someone use the word "slut". Especially when I hear other women use it! Grrr. Why is it okay for a man to sleep around, and not a woman? Why is sexual experience seen as an asset for a man, but not for a woman?
When I was growing up my mom always used to use the saying "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free". That used to make me SO mad! The implication being that a woman's value and worth is tied to her virginity. I mean, what more could a man possibly want from a woman? What more does she have to offer, once she no longer has a hymen? HOw disgusting!
I too feel we need to focus more on teaching women to be more comfortable with their bodies and their sexuality. I think it's a good idea to encourage young girls to masturbate so that they can learn what feels good. Then they can teach it to their partners. We need to let them know that they are entitled to sexual pleasure and satisfaction.
I have a BIG problem with teaching girls to wait until they are married. First of all it is unrealistic. Secondly though, it implies that ALL girls want to get married. And also, I think it is a good thing to have at least a few different partners before settling down. And what is wrong with having sex just for pleasure? Not EVERYONE desires to be married or in a committed relationship, but we all have sexual needs and desires. You are so right. It is natural and healthy, and nothing to be ashamed of.
If I were to teach my kid that whenever they felt the urge to eat they were committing a "sin" that would be considered abuse. Yet it is acceptable to teach them that whenever they have a sexual urge(a basic human need that is just as natural as the need to eat or go to the bathroom) that is considered acceptable.
Well Danielle I have to get going. I have a report to do for work that I need to get started on. It was nice chatting with you this afternoon though. I am looking forward to hearing from you again. Please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors, I was typing this really fast. Have a great day!
Elaine
AnswerHey! AGH I can't stand it when it does that!
That must be really hard, it's such a shame he had to change like that. I guess when certain beliefs get ahold of people, they don't let go. Good luck with your plans though, and I bet you'll end up being happier.
Wow. Lecturing YOU on how his ideas don't buy into your beliefs? More like the complete opposite. So, if someone wants women chained up and tortured, and you believe that's wrong, are you acting irrational? No. But he is.
A feminist lens? What? What other lens is there? Well, you could be ignorant, accept sexism, give up taking birth control, have all the kids your body could tolerate, be ok with the wage gap, and convince yourself sex is bad. Otherwise, the "feminist lens" sounds pretty damn good. That whole equality thing is just too attractive. If people just gave up their beliefs that go against society, I don't know where we'd be. Segregation? Women dying in large numbers from illegal abortion? No hormonal birth control? No votes for women or blacks? If people hadn't challenged the way society thought and acted, we'd be even further behind the times.
Yeah, I think he'd prefer it if you just kept this to yourself and went on your merry way with an unsatisfactory life. It's awesome that a lot of women are willing to no longer put up with that bullshit. And it's totally ok to want to be surrounded by those who share your beliefs; it gives you support, friendship, and trust.
The issue about respecting cultural differences, I feel the same way. I get so infuriated-should I think it's ok that in other cultures, gang rape is used as a punishment? Or that women are killed by their own families, because someone violated them? It's not a cultural issue to me, it's a human rights issue. Female genital mutilation...how is brutalizing someone to derive them of sexual pleasure ok? They have a human right to enjoy sex, and not have their genitals mutilated.
I totally understand! It's like, with religion, you can be forgiven for abusing your wife, but god forbid a woman gets an abortion. Now there's something to get angry about. It's disgusting how acceptable it is to violate women-physically, verbally, emotionally, financially, etc. And those of us who call it out are "over reacting". If people never "over reacted" (more like reacting how they should) then, it's just like speaking out-we'd be back in 1800.
It's a great book! It definitely gives a lot to say when someone claims women are equal and stuff like that. And it's frustrating, just because it is so maddening, to read about all the anti-woman stuff going on.
Ugh, the bans on vibrators are insane. It's actually mentioned in Full Frontal Feminism, and I definitely agree that if you're outlawing vibrators, why aren't you outlawing playboy, maxim, etc? Because women shouldn't enjoy sexual pleasure. I had no idea about the books, and unfortunately I'm not surprised. Of course, to some people, there aren't, in their minds, any other ways to have sex and sexual pleasure. Or it surprises people that women can receive pleasure from oral or anal sex. I remember learning about the Kinsey Reports that were released in the 1950's, and he found that the most sexually satisfied group were lesbians, which debunked the whole "only good sex is man on top and receiving orgasms through intercourse" belief. Well, sort of; I think ALOT of people today still think most women can orgasm solely through intercourse. Or yea, with clitoral stimulation, but with the message women get, I bet it's hard to initiate clitoral stimulation, because it means you're doing something to directly receive pleasure.
Oh goodness, birth control and abortion infuriate people! And like you said, it all traces back to the whole sex without procreation. That bothers SO many people. Like pharmacists refusing to give women their birth control or emergency contraception-against their beliefs, but it's their job. And I bet they have no problem filling viagra prescriptions. I mean, reading about what the birth control pill afforded women-it's amazing. You don't have to be a mother, and if you do, you can have more of a say in WHEN you become one. That's amazing. And horrible to some people, even though it's not their choice.
Hillary faced so much crap because she's a woman. I mean, the comments made about her, it's incredible. Online there is a video put together of a bunch of comments made about her on news shows, and it's ridiculous. One guy sounds out in alarm "men can't let the vagina take over! We need to reclaim the world for ourselves!" or something similar. And she was either too emotional or too cold. You just can't win.
I think I read, (in Full Frontal Feminism) that working mothers do more housework than the men who don't work and are home all day. All I can say is what the hell? Is it because housework is associated with women? I just can't picture myself putting up with that at all. Yes, and women who have children and work have to balance both like men never will have to. Not that these supposedly "pro-life" people are making it any easier. Just a whole lot harder. And some people EXPECT the career to take a backseat. First, they're ignoring that women just might like their work. And second, for many women, like single mothers, or families that don't have an enormous income, working can mean taking care of yourself and your family. She should be able to have a career and keep it, if that's what she pleases.
I've always had the belief that it's so important to be independent from men. If you were married for instance, and a stay at home mom, and your husband divorces you, what are you going to do? For example, also my own opinion-when Eliot spitzer got busted for the prostitution scandal and his wife stood by him, it was always in my mind that she had given up her career, so even if she wanted a divorce, she sure wasn't financially independent. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a career and wanting to keep it, that's great! You're either lazy for taking off work, or selfish for not. Another catch-22. And that's SO true. Men are never expected to do so, and it's not fair.
OH YES. The "you'll change your mind someday" line. Well, the truth is, yes, maybe some women will decide later on to have a child, and yes, some women will NOT. I remember being told I'd want children "because you're a girl." So, why do men want children then? It's such a personal decision, and everyone's should be respected. But assuming all women wish to have children? Just wrong, really. I remember when a report was released saying all girls should treat themselves as "pre pregnant" and I made a comment about how that's offensive-assuming that all girls are, are wombs. And I bet a lot of women that want to either not have a child, or postpone can't because of their lack of access to birth control. It's amazing how all these things tie together.
There are definitely people who will basically jump down other people's throats for saying something like that. I'm not good with children. My nephew and I didn't get along until he was 14. It's just so hard for some to believe that there are women who don't like children. It's simple, but too hard to grasp for a lot of people.
Yep. It's good for carrying heavy objects. Even though I like to do that myself. I remember once, I was with my mother, coming out of Costco, and she had purchased one of those gigantic things of bottled water, and she was having trouble lifting it. So I tried, and had some difficulty, and she made a comment "that's something for men to do." And, at that point, I hadn't even stopped to think that men were physically stronger. It really never had crossed my mind. I'll say though, I'd like to see a guy handle labor and childbirth. That's physical strength. But it's really the brain that comes into play-muscles won't help you memorize facts and whatever else is required. A guy may be able to lift bottled water easier then me, but I bet I'll know which birth control options are available to him and his girlfriend.
And with the intelligence thing, I just read a study the other day that was so interesting. So, there's always been this "girls are worse at math and science" belief, and with the tests they've performed, girls do perform less better. But, they've found that in countries where women are treated more equally, the scores either level out or are above boys. I thought that was really interesting.
Double standards make me crazy!!I remember we had a class discussion about this, and the general consensus, was yes, it's a double standard. Then this one guy goes "well girls are supposed to make it hard for the guy" and I sat there and said "even if she wants to have sex? What the...?" It just doesn't make any sense to me.
The virginity issue freaks me out. This whole thing about becoming a second born virgin...all it says is hey, all you're worth is your virginity, and guys will only love you if you are one. It's so demeaning. I like the saying "test drive the car before you buy it." Sometimes, sexual chemistry doesn't add up, and that causes havoc. There was this letter written by a woman on a website advice column, and she had been a virgin until married, but then it turns out her husband wasn't into sex, but she was, and she was really upset about that. And considering a lot of girls have uncomfortable first experiences, why would you want to go through that again? And do you want a guy who wants you to go through that again? I just despise that girls are getting the message that all they're worth is their virginity, it's so screwed up, and will cause sexual problems I'm sure in the long run.
That'd be great. I think masturbation will lead them to be more comfortable with who they are, but will also help them learn what sexually pleases them, which will make intercourse even better. In a high school sex ed class, I was friends with a girl, who was very naive, I could say, and after one of the classes we were walking and she goes "I didn't know girls could masturbate! They have nothing to go like this to! (hand motion of stroking a penis)." I was surprised. It's natural for little kids to masturbate, and I learned this year from a human sexuality teacher's presentation that young children can masturbate to orgasm. I didn't know that.
Yeah, waiting until marriage is not for everyone. Or the majority. It's so much sexism. Like you mentioned, assuming all girls want to get married. And it just places that big value on your hymen, that will never cease to creep me out. I wasn't raised with that thought, so it's just foreign to me. There's these purity balls, where fathers pledge their daughter's virginity. So creepy. And yet some of these men have been married more then once. And any number of sexual partners is ok, as long as both parties are consenting. Whether that means 0, 20, 6, 30, or 1, it's all good. People just need to let everyone else make their own sexual decisions. It'd be so nice. And what if you never get married? Or don't until you're 40? Or you have sex with the person before the marriage? It's unrealistic, definitely. And these are the same people who think sex should only be for making babies. If you're straight, married, and white.
When it's put like that, I don't see how people couldn't find it illogical. Humans are wired for sex. How do they think the human species kept going? It's human nature. And even if birth control is used, accidents happen, so there needs to be options available.
Good luck with the report, and I hope to hear from you again! Oh, I'm so bad at spotting spelling errors. I probably have so many. Have a great day as well, and if it's night, then have a great night!
